Season 3, Episode 4: Clowning, Failing, and Re-enchanting the Everyday with June Fukumura

Stephanie Werner: Welcome to FCAT After School, a podcast from SFU's Faculty of Communication, Art, and Technology. In each episode, we join student hosts in conversation with alumni as they explore career journeys since graduation, and gather advice for the next generation.

In this episode, host Torien Cafferata, MFA graduate at the School for Contemporary Arts, sits down with BFA graduate June Fukumura, an interdisciplinary theatre artist, clown, and comedian. She has appeared on the Arts Club stage, in film and TV, and an award-winning Fringe Festival solo show. In June’s world, there is little difference between a work-in-progress and what some people might call “failure” – in fact, as Torien discovers, this has been one of the crucial keys to her success – and to understanding what that truly means.

Music: Funky Disco Nver Avetyan from Pixabay

June Fukumura: Recently I went to a really great New Year's Day party.

Torien Cafferata: Ohh.

June Fukumura: And we were having a really great time, it was like noon to 7pm, because we're all adults here. It was like, super excellent crowd. And I found this disco ball on the DJ booth. And I just felt so drawn to it was like, Oh, this is this is it. This is my item. It's just a magical item. And I remember just dancing to it all night. And then I realized I'm like, oh, maybe other people want to dance with it, too. And so I held this disco ball over other people who I have never met before or spoken to. And it just like lit them up, you know, like brought the sense of like, pleasure and joy and –

Torien Cafferata: Oh I love that

June Fukumura: – this tiny disco ball became kind of this metaphor for this pleasure and fun and community almost –

Torien Cafferata: Mhmm

June Fukumura: – and it was being passed around the room. And people were like, giving it good party energy and passing it to the next person. And then like putting it over their own head and dancing with it, and then passing it to the next person.

Torien Cafferata: Just this little gift economy enchantment.

June Fukumura: Yeah. And it was just like little microcosm, and like, in that moment, I was like, oh, maybe this is also where clown lives. And this is where relational theatre and micro theatre lives.

Torien Cafferata: That is June Fukumura.

June Fukumura: I'm a Japanese Canadian interdisciplinary theatre maker and artist. I've been here I grew up in the unceded and occupied Coast Salish territories, including the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-waututh nations and I'm currently the Artistic Director of Popcorn Galaxies, which is a experimental theatre company with co-artistic director Keely O'Brien, I perform a create works through devised processes. I do all sorts of clown comedy, I work in puppetry, disability arts.

Torien Cafferata: June is an expert in creating work that pushes up against theatre conventions. She’s drawn to finding magic in the mundane – and hold onto that disco ball moment because we’ll come back to it – she loves subverting social scripts with comedy, playing with small intimate audiences, and offering them agency in driving the story itself. It’s the kind of experimentation we are seeing more and more of in contemporary performance. Part of the inspiration for this for June can be found in the disability arts.

June Fukumura: Um, I'm a dyslexic artist, and sort of exploring that as part of my identity as well as an artistic practice. And using dyslexic dramaturgy as a part of my artistic process and integrating that is something I'm exploring. I also work as a dramaturg. So I have various disciplines and practices all kind of merging at this moment.

Torien Cafferata: This convergence began however in June’s days at SFU’s School for Contemporary Arts during her BFA in Theatre Performance…

June Fukumura: Yeah, so I started SFU in 2010. I took a little gap year between high school and university where I went to Japan to sort of just have a wild year. My intention for going to SFU was to become an actor, because that's what I was doing in high school. And I was really deep into drama and wanted to pursue acting. And I think I started in well, in high school, I started in film and TV, so sort of mainstream acting, and got really sick of it. By the time I was 19. and felt like I was just being chewed up and spit out by the industry and felt like there was more to offer, artistically. And so I went to SFU. Because I was told by someone I knew very closely that SFU had a really experimental and edgy theater program. But I really didn't know anything more than that. So I kind of blindly went into it and got lucky that I auditioned and then got accepted into their theater program, which really opened me up to all of the possibilities of artistic creation through theater performance, devising and interdisciplinary collaboration, which is something I didn't even know existed up until my time there.

Torien Cafferata: You might already see a theme here – trusting impulse, following a path authentic to one’s own creativity and way of working, more than to the expectations of others.

Torien Cafferata: I really love school, like uh – as like a playground to flirt with disciplines.

June Fukumura: Mm hmm.

Torien Cafferata: Yeah.

June Fukumura: And I found a lot of pleasure in, you know, meeting different artists from different disciplines and the different artistic forms and how, you know, we can each be sort of in a, in a relational process, you can evolve and you can push boundaries of form.

Torien Cafferata: Yeah.

June Fukumura: I think that's sort of the most interesting thing that I found at SFU is trying to challenge the conventions of theatre, particularly at that time, I was studying with, you know, teachers like Steven Hill who continues to question form and convention. And so a lot of his teachings have been filtered through my time there. And I've really incorporated his practices into my own. And, you know, someone like David McMurray Smith, who's a clown teacher, really impacted me in a significant way through his clown work; was something that I had no idea would have any interest in up until, you know, I went to SFU. And then I ended up taking David's class, even after I graduated through my own studying with him, so yeah, branching off into different fields.

Torien Cafferata: Wow. Yeah, I love okay, I love the we've come to clown now. Because for listeners out there, who maybe have a very, a very particular or very limited perspective of what clown is and what it's like, what do you do? What do we do with clown school?

June Fukumura: Yeah, when I first started taking clown, the only reason I took it is was because it was a prerequisite to graduate. [laughs] So I actually had no idea what it was. I just was told by upper years that it was a very scary class. And so I was very frightened.

Torien Cafferata: Scary because it’s clowns and “clowns are scary” or scary because it's like really hard –

June Fukumura: Both! [laughs] Terrifying clowns being graded.

Torien Cafferata: Tim Curry teaches this class.

June Fukumura: Yeah, through like clowning in academia, what a terrifying thought. And very convoluted. I first took Stephen Hill's clown class, which was primarily a kind of European lineage sort of breaking down the ego from the outside, which was quite difficult, I think, in an academic setting. And I don't think it actually makes sense to teach clown in that particular way, because it inherently is contradictory to what clown actually is, which clown is to me, you know, the fool or the trickster, the outsider, the one who is a part of society, but also is rejected at the same time and uses themselves as fool to enter into society. And also to reflect a mirror back at society, through parody, through dance, through song, through mimicking, sometimes through mockery. And all of these tactics are used in order to reflect back at society, the societal ills or societal joys, the various things that might be hidden and laid dormant in societal consciousness.

Torien Cafferata: Wow. And so do you feel like that – there's some kind of tension between that and academia, because academia has this, it is an institution, there's a sense of like, we're civil and respectful. And, you know, there's this, there's a legacy to protect or prestige. And, and you feel like clown in many ways is like, tries to tear that down.

June Fukumura: Yeah, absolutely. And also, I think, the main – the heartbeat of clowning, lies in failure.

Torien Cafferata: Ahh.

June Fukumura: And so inherently in academia, the idea as a student is to succeed, and a lot of times, it's to do well in that class to get a good grade. But what does that mean to take clown and fail in that class, and then also succeed, like failure is the succeeding, but it doesn't really make sense. And you're being you're being graded for failing, failing? Well, how do you fail? Well, and how does one put a metric around that?

Torien Cafferata: Oof, yeah. Big feelings with that like 100%.

June Fukumura: Yeah, it was kind of a hilarious hypocrisy. But to me, the value of taking that class is that it really opened me up to new possibilities of performance. And what it means to break the fourth wall with the audience, what does it mean, to be honest, on stage, like, as someone who was trained in theater and also in Grotowski, based physical theater, you know, there's still the sense of, there's an actor on stage performing. And sometimes there's a fourth wall. And it's sort of a self contained world. But in clown, there's no such thing as a fourth wall. Or if there is a fourth wall, you're pretending and playing the fourth wall, and hinting at the fourth wall being there. So there's always a sense of kind of relational reciprocity and complicite with the audience.

Torien Cafferata: Mmm yeah

June Fukumura: And it kind of that sort of blew open possibilities of performance for me, and also the aspect of comedy.

Torien Cafferata: Yeah. Yeah.

June Fukumura: And that really changed my idea of theater and what it could be.

Torien Cafferata: I'm curious, if how many viewers out there or listeners out there are, you know, feeling similar tensions, you know, especially the arts or any kind of any kind of field that is asking you to be creative or asking you to be subversive? I imagine maybe lots of poli sci students out there being like, yeah, it'd be radical, but also I exist in this system. And and what do we do with that tension? And that will have its it – how does it inform your practice? So I'm really curious what that has resulted in if that has any connection to your various experiences and I'm, you've mentioned that you're also dyslexic too, which I imagine, had some kind of connection to like, tension with academia, but also a particular kind of relationship to failure and, and clown.

June Fukumura: Yeah, that's a biggie. It's a goodie though.

Torien Cafferata: Sorry let’s just take three different disparate concepts and be like what – let's talk about that!

June Fukumura: Yeah, no, no, it's it's a goodie and a biggie. Um, yeah, let's start with dyslexia, then. Yeah, so um, I very recently discovered that I am dyslexic and always have been dyslexic. I just didn't really have a name for it. But all throughout university, I really struggled through academia. Even though I was doing well, which was confusing, kind of like clown, I was failing. But I was also succeeding at the same time outwardly. But I was doing a lot of work on the inside, to mask and make up for what I felt were deficiencies. Like I can't read very quickly. Memorization is very challenging for me. cold reading can be atrocious for me; all things that,

Torien Cafferata: Hmm.

June Fukumura: You know, actors, capital A actors, are supposed to be very good at. And all these things that I was really struggling with. So I felt like I was definitely feeling a difference between how I learn how I understand the world around me, and how my peers were interacting with the academic world and the world around them. So it was always really difficult. And I actually during university, I had no idea. And so I just struggled under the surface.

Torien Cafferata: Hmm

June Fukumura: But I guess the thing that I ended up doing because I was struggling, for better or for worse, I sort of thought, well, I don't want to be just an actor then, if this is what it takes to be an actor and only an actor. I really would rather create my own work. You know, if it's going to be terrible and hard to audition for something, well, maybe I should just write my own work and star it myself. So I don't have to audition. Or I don't have to please other people. And so Keeley O'Brien and I, we met through SFU’s theatre program, and we were in the same cohort, we ended up creating a theatre company together in our, like, sort of ad hoc, in our second or third year, we started to sort of jam on ideas, and we weren't really a company then. But we started to make work together. And we created this show called radiant thing, which was a micro theatre for one audience member at a time. And one of our profs said, you can't make shows for one person at a time, we need to be like, you know, making theatre more accessible, like we need to make theatre available for other people, more people, not one person at a time, we were like, Well, screw you, we're gonna make a one person per show theater performance.

Torien Cafferata: Absolutely, love that.

June Fukumura: And so that was kind of the, you know, our way of centering our own artistic vision. Rather than trying to conform to some sort of convention, like we have to do in a theatre and the audience has to sit in seats, and they have to be facing forward. We were like, okay, so how can we change all of those rules, or at least play with those rules? Now that we know that the rules exist?

Torien Cafferata: Yeah. And so subverting an institution, subverting expectations – conventions to create something that must have been so intimate.

June Fukumura: Yeah. And it was an hour long performance for one person at a time. Keely and I were the two performers. But we had basically constructed a whole narrative that the audience had to be kind of a part of in order to activate. That's one of the cornerstones of Popcorn Galaxies today is the activation of audience as a participant in our work, rather than just a simple observer. And how can the audience have agency in their role?

Torien Cafferata: Mmm

June Fukumura: And how can we create magic in the everyday through those theatrical experiences?

Torien Cafferata: Yeah, yeah, okay so. Magic in the everyday feels really significant to me. Like how does one enchant the everyday? Like, what is that process? And also the re-enchant – it's like, was it enchanted before? What happened? There's this like, sort of story laden in there. What happened?

June Fukumura: Yeah, I think we sort of stumbled upon this idea. And, you know, this is our this has been our mandate for 10 years, and it continues to be the heartbeat of our work together. But I think re-enchanting the every day is so important, because I think when we were kids, things were enchanted. For example, we did a show called Invisible City. And it was an audio project where the audience members listen to an audio track that we have pre recorded, and they walk around the city according to their own impulses, there's no map, there's no route. But the audio, for example, would say something like, Okay, do you see that next intersection? Okay, walk to that next intersection? Do you see a plant? And then we would play a little song that we wrote from the perspective of the plant.

Torien Cafferata: Oh my God.

June Fukumura: And so as you're like, you know, putting your ear against this tree in the middle of downtown Vancouver, the song would start to play

Torien Cafferata: Oo ooh, so it's like drawing out the enchantment that's, that's already there. It's been there. It’s always there.

June Fukumura: It's been there the whole time. We're always living through it. We're just missing it because we're so busy thinking about other things and not present and so how can we draw attention to the most obvious things that are right in front of us.

Torien Cafferata: Aw that's such a great such a great like beacon to kind of be led by and and I also — when you're talking about like children like when we're children we see this magic and it's everything's already like we see the enchantment that is already laden in, in the in the trees and the plants. And it also made me think of like how children are also allowed to fail.

June Fukumura: Mm hm.

Torien Cafferata: Yeah. So I'm curious with all of this – when you complete these projects, and you are you reflect on it, or you reflect on your practice, is there is there, what was the what's like the measure of success, and I use that in air quotes, because I know that again,

June Fukumura: An A! 10, out of 10, five star review.

Torien Cafferata: Yeah an A+! Haha. Sometimes I call it like an evaluative Lighthouse of sorts that tells you like, Oh, this is what I'm feeling, or this is what happened. And so that tells me that I'm doing a good job, whether that's something that you discover in yourself or something you see in your peers or community, or if it's a particular kind of experience, like pleasure, understanding, or just did I make the right people kind of uncomfortable or something like that?

June Fukumura: Yeah, that's a really great question. I think what I'm trying to do more and more. And this also has to do with dyslexic dramaturgy, which draws on the idea of process being more important than the final product. And not necessarily that it's not about pursuing or not pursuing artistic excellence. But it is about the quality of collaboration. Something about the quality of collaboration and pleasure in collaborating feels really important to me as a measure of success. Like, did we as collaborators have an interesting time together? Did we explore questions? Did we get deep? Do we talk and think about things we haven't thought of before? Did we have fun? Did we have a good time? Did we laugh? Those are all things that I think more and more, you know, it's become really important to me as a priority in my projects. And of course, you know, what we deliver or what is shown in front of the audience is absolutely important to me. And it always will be because at the end of the day, it is a relational thing that we're doing; this performative theatrical experience is with and for the audience. So the audience's perspective is absolutely integral to the process design. But I do think, you know, taking time to really nurture the collaborators within the collaboration by, you know, thinking about access needs, thinking about how people like to collaborate, thinking about duration, like what times work best for people to work, what sort of environment, you know, helps someone do their best work.

Torien Cafferata: Right.

June Fukumura: Those qualities of interaction in the process lends itself to artistic excellence in the end. So without it, I think we're just always going to be sort of in this scarcity model, where we're working ourselves, you know, till we're totally burned out just to deliver something that we feel is necessary.

Torien Cafferata: Mhmm, going back to your earliest experiences in the film/TV industry that felt it was very product focused, and then that drew you to actually what I, you know, what I want is this, that it's that it's about process. And it sounds like what if I'm hearing correctly, that if you focus on a process of, of joy amongst collaborators, that that is what is going to guarantee that you'll have joy to share for the audience, and that the audience will share in it with you come with you, because they'll see it.

June Fukumura: Yeah. And even if the show itself or the product, or whatever you deliver is, maybe not what you hoped it would be, or maybe there was something missing, or you didn't feel totally satisfied, I mean, I don't think that that's the end of the project, like you can continue to work on that. But if you, you know, are constantly burning bridges, burning yourself out, and not having a fun time in the collaboration, I think that really will ultimately ruin or deplete you as an artist. And so trying to really focus on that right now. It's not always easy, because I think we work within a capitalist framework that pushes against all of those ideas, especially like, you know, within disability arts, I think often it really does push against capitalism. And with, you know, most of us I think we want to do more quality with more abundance.

Torien Cafferata: Yeah, yeah, let's talk about that. There's this, this this disability angle with like dyslexic dramaturgy and, and just like operating from like a disability framework in theatre, again, it's, it feels very much in line with this kind of, like, anti-institutional framework that understands failure, not not as this thing to pathologize but as just this very, like very natural human thing. And when you're working under capitalism, yeah you're right, the things that we the metrics of success that capitalism wants to impose upon us are not going to leave as much space for disability. So I'm kind of curious what does what does dyslexic dramaturgy look like or disability dramaturgy look like — like how do you — if there was if there's disabled listeners who are like, oh, I want to I want to be in the working in that and making art as a disabled artist; what does that look like?

June Fukumura: Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about it. And this is all like emerging ideas for me. So I'm sure my ideas will evolve. But at this moment, I really think about like, what are the environments that disable us?

Torien Cafferata: Mmm.

June Fukumura: You know, because I think on one level, yes, disability, you know, if you have a disability, it's very difficult to live in the world because the world, this capitalist world, does not accommodate disability, or thinks of you as less than because you're not as productive. So yes, absolutely disability, however, like what are the circumstances that enable you, like, bring you to life like what are all of the ways that actually enable you to do your best work or what are your superpowers as someone who thinks and acts and perceives the world differently, rather than concentrating on the setbacks — like what are the opportunities that you bring? For example, I think the reason why my career and my artistic practice looks so kind of like a mosaic is because I'm dyslexic.

Torien Cafferata: Mmm.

June Fukumura: And the ability probably for you to be able to study all these disparate ideas into one podcast is because you also have some sort of neurodivergence too that allows you to see kind of a holistic bigger picture,

Torien Cafferata: Oh, I feel seen.

June Fukumura: And that you don't have — and you feel comfortable and I feel comfortable not necessarily going from A to be to see that it can be nonlinear and nonlinear sequential. And I live very comfortably in that space. And so of course, the work that I create, has those qualities within it is a nonlinear sequential, very divergent, kind of pushes up against institutions, subversive, playful, and full of neurodivergent joy, because that's just how I operate. And so for me, I keep thinking about like, okay, what are the things that we can do in order to enable all of these things that lay dormant inside of us? And of course, accommodations are very important, but like, what are the things that we can do to like, enhance, and even feature, illuminate all of those differences that actually help everyone in the end?

Torien Cafferata: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that resonates so strongly with me, like this understanding that disability, if it's a, if we see it as this, like, the social model like that, it's a social construction. And, you know, that means that, that's that I feel like a lot of us exists among, like, a lot of spectra, and that there are conditions that could be disabling to a lot of people, like even people who think they're neurotypical or maybe are neurotypical in certain contexts. You know, you put them in a, just a slightly different condition or like, take certain things away, and then suddenly, they're like, oh, wow, this is disabling. And I'm just like, yeah, it makes me think a lot about that.

June Fukumura: Exactly. And I think, you know, a lot of my deaf and hard of hearing friends talk about, like, we're all going to be deaf and hard of hearing at some point, or like, some sort of spectrum towards it. Like we are all going to be at some point, you know, experiencing some level of disability in our lives.

Torien Cafferata: Yeah like you can become disabled overnight.

June Fukumura: Exactly, absolutely. And so it's not like it happens over there to someone else, but it's actually part of human condition. And like you say, it's like, it can really enable everyone like if, for example, I like to have my scripts sent to me, like two nights or three nights ahead of time when I'm doing a reading for a play, or an audition, or anything, and I like to have the script in sans serif, which is the font that allows me to read better in maybe size 12, or 14 font, which just enlarges the font. So it's just clearer on the page, like, I think that doesn't hurt anyone.

Torien Cafferata: Yeah.

June Fukumura: I don't think anyone is like, Oh, my God, these words are too big and too clear and spaced out.

Music: Enjoy The Summer (Tropical House) penguinmusic from Pixabay

Torien Cafferata: What is something that you cannot stop thinking of in the past, present and future so it can be any one of those things; something that's is haunting you from the past or something that's haunting you in the present or something that's haunting you from the future.

June Fukumura: Yeah. [beat of reflection] I think the thing that keeps me up at night is this idea of comedy now,

Torien Cafferata: Ooh.

June Fukumura: What is the role of comedy in this present reality in this North American context?

Torien Cafferata: Yeah.

June Fukumura: As an artist, what does comedy do? And I think I'm asking this because our current reality keeps shifting. It's just so rapidly shifting everyday. Like, there's more and more, you know, obviously, geopolitical things happening in the world. A lot of interpersonal things happening in the world local things, you know, there's environmental factors, there's just so much going on. And I continue to ask, why comedy? And why now? And how can my comedy? Or where does my comedy sit in the spectrum? Because I think, you know, I think it is really important, but sometimes I do also feel very bogged down by the atrocities and the, you know, various things going on in the world. And I'm trying to really find my voice inside of this moment.

Torien Cafferata: Yeah, all that is that's a that's a big answer for a big question. Because, I can imagine there might be some some listeners out there being like, right, but like, climate change, and, and war and genocide, and all these things, and, and sometimes, you know, we can easily like, look at that as this like false dichotomy, like, well, but we want joy in the world, right? Like, what do you do when you are – When you haven't – You come home from a long day, and you know, you are bogged down, you're exhausted and drained. Where do you go, we go to the clowns and the comedians. We do that as a reparative thing, but yeah, thinking again, back on what you said about challenging these institutions and challenging capitalistic metrics of failure, and in what ways can comedy and satire actually, feasibly, measurably, actionably challenge these? And what does it provide? What is it for?

June Fukumura: Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about pleasure activism, and just the role of pleasure in making art in general and relating to people.

June Fukumura: And actually, one funny way kind of comedy sort of slipped into my life is recently I went to a really great New Year's Day party…

Torien Cafferata: And here is where June told me her New Year’s Day party story you heard earlier –

June Fukumura: And I found this disco ball on the DJ booth // and  it was being passed around the room. And people were like, giving it good party energy and passing it to the next person. And then like putting it over their own head and dancing with it, and then passing it to the next person.

Torien Cafferata: – the gift economy of the disco ball, passing it around a room full of adults – a simple act that unlocked communal joy, an impulse to re-enchant an otherwise grown-up gathering.

June Fukumura: That was sort of like a glimpse into this question that I've been having. Like, where does what is the role of pleasure and comedy now? And it kind of started to crack that open for me, and I felt like, oh, maybe maybe it's in places like this. It doesn't have to necessarily be on a stage or written on a grant or, you know, written academically about it, but it's actually like happening all the time. If we can frame it in such a way that there is a sense of play and reciprocity. We don't even have to call it clown. We can just call it reciprocity.

Torien Cafferata: Yeah, it's, it's it's magic. You were sharing magic.

June Fukumura: Yeah, right. Magic. Yeah. It was amazing that people like brought out their dance moves. And they were like bugging this like tiny little disco ball all night. It was so great. And people were lit up. Yeah, and then Yeah, and at the very end everyone was like “Disco! Yeah!” Like, there's like this weird synergy that happened just around this like one little, little item, but I don't know, there's maybe something in that. But it's a continuous question.

Torien Cafferata: Mhmm. Yeah, I think well, I think that's as good a place as any to end – with the sharing of magic, the enchantment found in a disco ball at a New Year's Day party. That's beautiful. Yeah thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing your magic with us.

June Fukumura: Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Torien Cafferata: Discovery, disability, disco balls. June made me think a lot about what messes and magic from my life I had been ignoring or pathologizing with internalized ableism as a fellow neurodivergent artist – studying it does not mean I never do it. But ultimately, hearing June talk and seeing her performance work just made me miss playing in that brazen, child-like way that places process over product, transforms failure into joy, and without a second thought shares that enchantment with everyone at the party. I’m Torien Cafferata. Thanks for dropping by After School.

Stephanie Werner: Many thanks to June Fukumura and Torien Cafferata for sharing this candid conversation on failure, and our ability to re-enchant the everyday

FCAT After School is produced by Emma Jean, Torien Cafferata, and Stephanie Werner, with help from Stu Popp and Tessa Perkins Deneault. We respectfully acknowledges the Musqueam  (mus-kwee-um), Squamish (squa-mish), Tsleil-Waututh (sail-wha-tooth), Katzie (kat-zee), Kwikwetlem (kwee-kwet-lum), Qayqayt (key-kite), Kwantlen (kwant-len), Semiahmoo (semi-ah-moo) and Tsawwassen (tsa-wah-sen) peoples, on whose unceded traditional territories our three campuses reside, and where many of the stories shared in our series take place.

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to leave us a rating and subscribe to FCAT After School wherever you listen to podcasts. You can follow us on social media at FCAT at SFU. That's F C A T @ SFU across all platforms.

For feedback or guest suggestions, reach us by email at: F cat ENG @ sfu.ca. All links in the show notes. See you next time.