Below the Radar Transcript
Episode 223: Platforms, Power, and Politics — with Bruce Mutsvairo
Speakers: Julia Aoki, Am Johal, Bruce Mutsvairo
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Julia Aoki 0:04
Hello listeners! I’m Julia Aoki with Below the Radar, a knowledge democracy podcast. Below the Radar is recorded on the territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh peoples.
On this episode of Below the Radar, our host Am Johal is joined by Bruce Mutsvairo, Professor of Media and Culture Studies at Utrecht University, and a 2023 SFU CERi researcher-in-residence. Together, they discuss Bruce’s transition from journalism to academia, the complexities of citizen journalism, and the state of journalism in Africa. We hope you enjoy the episode!
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Am Johal 0:39
Hello, welcome to Below the Radar. Delighted that you could join us again. We have a special guest joining us from Utrecht, Bruce Mutsvairo. Bruce, I wonder if we can begin with you introducing yourself a little bit?
Bruce Mutsvairo 0:53
Yes, thanks. I am a professor in the Department of Media and Culture Studies at Utrecht University, here in the Netherlands, and I have previously worked in the US at Auburn University, also in Australia at the University of Technology Sydney, at Northumbria University in the UK, before then I studied here and also in the UK.
Am Johal 1:17
Bruce, you made a kind of an interesting transition from journalism to academia and I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to your work as a journalist and what led you into moving in a more academic direction or what were the questions that were driving you? So, first about your, your journalism, and then your sort of journey into looking at the academic framing around some of these questions that journalism brings to the surface?
Bruce Mutsvairo 1:47
So, yeah, I think my my, my dream, or my passion was always in journalism. Ever since I was young, I always wanted to be a journalist, you know, my father used to send me to buy a newspaper and I guess I would read the newspaper on my way back. And I think that is how I developed my interest in, in, in newspapers in general, but in journalism, specifically. So, yeah, I then, you know, when I was doing my undergrad, it was quite clear I wanted to be a journalist. I remember being in a class with a lot of students who were not very sure what they wanted to do, but for me, it was quite clear. After my, my, my BA, I went to Cardiff, and because I knew that the program was quite well respected. So I then went to do my masters. Then immediately after that, I then got a job, studying, working as a reporter at the AP office in Amsterdam.
It was really by coincidence how I got into the, the academia, I think, I never saw myself as, as an academic. I was always interested in journalism. And the way it happened was, there's a local university, American university, here called Webster University. I think the the main campus is somewhere in the US, and their campus, their campus is in the city of Leiden. You probably know, Am, because you were here.
It happened that the person who was in charge of the communication program then was an American lady, and she called into the AP office looking for somebody to give a guest lecture. In fact, she was clear, she was looking for my bureau chief, Arthur Max at that time, and he happened to be away reporting—I think he was in Jerusalem, or he was somewhere. I don't remember. Basically, I then mentioned that he was not there. She wanted somebody to talk about the, you know, the Prophet Mohammed cartoons and the whole, that was the time when, you know, many countries in the Middle East had decided to stop purchasing Danish products because of this whole controversy that had happened in Denmark. Purely by coincidence, because then I, she then said, "Would you mind coming to Webster to talk to students about this?" And I said, "Well, I have never, I've never been in front of students, you know. So I cannot imagine myself being—talking to students, I've, you know, I can't do it." And somehow, I don't know, she encouraged me to do it. So I ended up going to give this guest lecture.
And that was the start of it, because after that—I think I knew what a PhD was, but what then happened was that there was a teaching slot, immediately the semester that followed, that she then called me again and said, "Hey, we're looking for somebody to come and teach. Would you be interested to teach a journalism course here?" And I was like, "Oh, okay. Well, let's see how it goes." And then obviously, from then, I then started to—I started thinking about doing a PhD, and then moved into the academia. So it was really unplanned, but, you know, as I'm sure everybody has their own sort of stories and their unique ways of getting into the academia, I guess this, this is how it happened for me. And yeah, because, you know, I don't come from a rich family or something like that. I just come from a normal family and in my family, I was prob—I'm probably the first person to go to university. So, we—I did—yeah, we didn't grow up being told that, you know, there's a PhD at this or that, oh, I didn't know what—I didn't even know what it was. So, I just followed what this journey led me to and somehow I ended up in the academia.
Am Johal 5:53
Now, Bruce, there's, you know, over the years have been many ways to explore ways to challenge, disrupt traditional media infrastructure, their norms and power dynamics. I know that you've done research in Africa on citizen journalists, activist use of online based technologies, as well as digital and data dissidents. And I'm wondering if you could, first of all, you know, speak to the broader challenges of the power dynamics with media, and then the new forms of journalism that are emerging, trying to disrupt or challenge more traditional forms of journalism?
Bruce Mutsvairo 6:32
I think, first of all, media has, or journalism specifically, has traditionally been constrained in many African countries. And you could perhaps also say, in many non-western societies. It doesn't obviously mean that here in the West, everything always works the way that we expect it to. But what you actually see in, in many African societies is that many citizens have taken to online communities to try and express themselves, to try and find a way to say no, to try and find a voice that perhaps they've never had. And of course, I'm speaking in general, it's quite interesting, because if you look at the World Press Freedom rankings of 2022, what you see is, it's quite interesting in the sense that some countries like Namibia or Cape Verde, which are African countries, they are ranked quite higher, in fact, much better than the UK or the US. But of course, I'm just pointing to these two as examples to show that I mean, it's not all doom and gloom on the African continent. But the point is, in many authoritarian states of the African continent, citizens see this as an opportunity to galvanize, support, and fight against, against totalitarianism.
Now, what you then see on the other hand, is that, well, these regimes have also realized the potential that the online technologies provide. So, particularly with regards to the Chinese funded sort of technological mechanisms, say eavesdrop or target human rights activists, journalists, and people that are—that the government consider to be traitors or against—or people who are against their belief or their commitment to try and stay in power. This then brings a tug of war, in a way, because people, journalists, or activists, they get hounded by, by governments, because governments also are seeing the opportunity that these technologies can bring in terms of also trying to see who and what is being said by those who are against them.
So, we have a very difficult situation in that regard. You have a situation, for example, a country like Sudan, you know, Omar Al Bashir, the former president had said, "Well, I will never quit, I will never leave the power." Interestingly, actually, those protests that were started on social media platforms, like Twitter and Facebook, that eventually led to him being out. It doesn't mean, of course, that the situation is better as we're speaking. You may know, of course, Western diplomats and many people are being evacuated in Sudan. So, the situation doesn't always get better by removing a dictator, or as we've seen, also in Arab Spring countries, and I think the Arab Spring was more of a trigger, right. 2010, 2011 people thought a democracy would come to most of these countries, particularly in African countries, because they were seeing what was happening in North Africa in the, in the Arab world. But what we've seen is, apart from, I think, a very few examples, like Sudan, in this case, you remove the leader, but then it doesn't mean that the upheaval—or it doesn't stop the upheaval or it doesn't bring peace.
The, you know, it's like problem after problem. So, you remove this problem. This guy has been there for a long time. Now, you are looking for peace or you're hoping that now that this guy is gone, there is an opportunity, but then, in some cases, you know, you, you speak to people on the ground. They tell you, well, it's—actually Qaddafi was better, our situation was, was better when Qaddafi was there, for example. It's a very tough situation.
But, what is quite clear is technologies are being used. And, and of course, they are challenges. It's not like a situation where you have 90% of the country having access or being able to use these technologies. There is digital divide, you know, there is digital illiteracy—it's expensive also, just to have access to data, you know, then it becomes an elite, I mean, you must have some money to be able to actually access data, because you, you cannot forget that most of these countries are already poor, you know, the inequalities, the long-standing inequalities between the south and the north, you see that here, they get exacerbated. And you see that the situation does not get better. But, I think, it depends, you have to look at these situations from, perhaps not from a sort of universal, or from a one, 54 country, nation, sort of Africa, but to look at what is happening in Botswana, what is happening in Angola, what is happening in Mozambique, because of course, even though they're all African countries, they do not always have similar problems or challenges.
Am Johal 12:04
Bruce, now, you reported for the AP in Africa, as well in Ghana, Zimbabwe, Angola, South Africa, a number of places. I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit to what you found memorable from that period of, of working as a reporter.
Bruce Mutsvairo 12:19
Yeah, it was, it was fun. I think most of my AP reporting on the African continent, I mean, I didn't really do a lot of conflict reporting and all that. I mean, I remember covering the elections in Zimbabwe. It gives you the opportunity to see things the way they are. And, of course, I think it doesn't get better than the AP, of course, in terms of having the experience to—or being led by people with a lot of experience in journalism, and whoever—sort of a unique way of telling stories.
So, yeah, I have fond memories about that period. I'll go to Ghana, to Angola, you know, to—covering the African Cup of Nations. Yeah, it was, it was just something that was memorable. And it was great to be close to the people. And I think this, in a way, has had a huge influence on my research. I realized I had actually—I had developed—Africa had actually given me a name as a reporter, it had given me the opportunity to report and write. I decided—if you like to call it a—to launch my academic career also within the African continent, and to, because it's something that I already knew, develop the networks, the contacts, the connections, that you need to be able to actually do academic work, and also the knowledge, you know, it's a vast continent, of course, more than 50 countries, and it helps to be able to have some networks within, within the continent. And to go back to some of the people that you have worked with, during your time as a journalist, and to use them as networks and contacts for the academic work that I do.
I think it's—it makes me feel very privileged and lucky, in that regard, to be able to look at things from both the journalistic, but also academic perspective, and focusing on one continent, I mean, Africa, has a lot of opportunity. It's a continent where I was also born, I was born in Zimbabwe, and my father still lives in Zimbabwe, of course. So you, you, you go back, and you know, you, you see the connection, it feels like, you are also writing about something that you know, that is close to you, you, when you're doing it, you feel like you have to do it right. Because, you know, whatever you write and whatever you say, affects people in terms of their decisions and their perceptions of the continent. So you, you are a journalist, but you also become more of an advocate as well, you know, because you want things to be fair, you want things to be rational, you want things to be done in a very right manner. And yeah, you know, it's not for me to judge, but I feel like I've always wanted the challenge of being a reporter, but—and also the same time, being able to be on the forefront of writing and researching Africa in the, in the Global South. It's, as I've said, I think it's a privilege in that regard.
Am Johal 15:28
Bruce, you know, I know that you have interest in exploring the risks to journalists and forms of crisis reporting, looking at the intersection of press freedom, the safety of journalists in conflict, we've seen, you know, incredible rise in attacks on journalists from both states and other malicious actors, for people just simply doing their jobs as journalists, as you've studied journalism and research side, I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit to the trends around the attack on journalism as a profession, and also journalists, as people doing their work. There's incredible amount of duress and attacks on safety that are, that are present globally, not just in the African context.
We had Maria Ressa come and speak here last year, and had a number of fellows with a foundation based in Vancouver where we had a chance to meet a number of really brave journalists who are doing this work on the ground and in many countries around the world. But I'm wondering if you can speak to that aspect of your research.
Bruce Mutsvairo 16:33
It's very coincidental that you mentioned Maria Ressa, because last year, I also was on a panel with her in—at the Nobel Peace Center in Oslo, in Norway. And we were actually talking about this, as I'm sure you know, particularly when it comes to safety for her. I mean, her situation is perhaps very unique in the, in the fact that she was really targeted for a very long time by the state, by the Philippine government. But Maria Ressa is not, you know, is not alone.
And in fact, journalism has become more and more of a dangerous profession. I mean, people see journalists as threats. You see journalists, or journalism as a threat, particularly if you have something to hide, I would say, you know. And this is not to say that journalists always get it right, but I always see journalism as giving an opportunity to everybody, including the dictator, including anyone who actually has something against journalism. I don't think it is possible in this day and age to consider journalists as enemies. Journalists, I think their job is to report, to tell what is happening so that people can make informed decisions.
Now, indeed, as you've said, particularly during the COVID-19 era—still not, not gone completely. But you—we saw, that's when, I mean, this whole concept of democratic deficit sort of gathered momentum, because even in the Western world, you know, where journalism has traditionally been respected, we saw that many police across the world, they use the lockdown measures as sort of an excuse to stop journalists from doing their, their job. So, it has become a very difficult job for, for many people.
On the African continent, you know, this has always been a big problem, because, of course, if you look at it from a political perspective, many political leaders in Africa have traditionally wanted this idea of staying, you know, in power. You have, let's take a good example, in Uganda, since 2021, the Ugandan Government has banned Facebook. So, Facebook is not—it is impossible, or it is not allowed legally to—I mean, people use VPN and, you know, but legally, people are not allowed to have access to Facebook as we speak. More like the way it is in China. And you know, the, the President has been in power for decades. And you think, “Well, look, what are you trying to hide? Why is this platform? What is it shown to you? What does it mean to you to the extent that you will want to actually stop citizens from accessing it?”
I think many of these governments, they have seen that, you know, these platforms not only arm or provide opportunities for journalists, as professionals, but also to people, to ordinary people, because people—the information that traditionally they have tried to propagandize, if you like, to try not to provide the truth to the people, now people have alternatives. They have, you know, they see what the government or when the government is lying. And so the better way to stop people from having this access to social media platforms is to just stop it. And it's not just Uganda. I think many African governments have, the last years, have decided to just stop access to the internet whenever there's the fear there might be riots, or—they just shut it down. Internet shutdowns and you know, social media shutdowns have become a thing now. You know, because they realize that this platform is a threat to them.
When you talk of journalism or journalist safety and you actually see that there is a problem, and it's not getting better, you know, and it's not—traditionally we would only talk about countries which notoriously have jailed or, you know, in the so-called conflict countries. But now, I think the journal—the safety of journalists is something that is taken for granted, including in countries that are at peace. Yeah, it's, it's very worrying. Let's put it that way.
It's, I mean, we're—I'm working right now in Ethiopia and in Mali, and we are with the, with my team, we are trying to look at how myths or disinformation rather, exacerbates conflict. And in doing this work, we have spoken to tons and tons of journalists, local journalists, and they see, of course, the upsurge of—or the ubiquity of disinformation, which is being shared, or which gets propagated using online platforms. And there is also a specific issue for some of them, because they are already living in a country that is confronted by conflict. And what is always problematic for them is, of course, particularly in these two countries that I've just mentioned, there is an issue of ethnicity, most of the conflict depends—or is being driven by ethnic wars. So you know, as a journalist, you have to be extremely careful, not just in terms of following your ethics, but also people are willing to accept what you're saying, without even verifying, just because you belong to their—to this ethnicity, because this ethnicity is believed.
It's unsafe. If you come to a minority sort of ethnicity, and you report something that might be seen to be untruthful, you will get targeted by the people. So, yeah, there's a lot of problems, particularly if you try to intersect, on one hand, journalism, conflict, and safety of journalists, and I think, I think governments and journalists themselves, I think we need to do more. And we need to do more research also, and find ways to try and protect and make the situation better, particularly for journalists.
Am Johal 23:12
Now, with the growth of, you know, different forms of citizen journalism, and this shift of power that they sometimes offer that can, you know, promote modes of greater democracy in media, but they also increase the risks for individual journalists who might be lacking in affiliations or support structures that they offer. I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to, kind of, what the possibilities of citizen journalism are, but also kind of challenges to those forms of working?
Bruce Mutsvairo 23:43
Yes, I think citizen journalism has given many and many communities an opportunity. It's—first of all, there are issues with trust, right, and I don't think this is only non-western societies. But, I think trust—many governments, many, many people, also in the West, they don't trust their governments. It's sort of tumbling, trust in government is tumbling. And, I think, trust in journalism also has fallen. So, citizen journalism has not only given the opportunity for people to voice their concerns, but it has also given them the chance to, to do journalism themselves. I mean, this obviously does not always mean that there are no ethical concerns or there are no issues of doing that, of course. And, of course, you have other scholars who have even questioned whether citizen journalism should even be called journalism, because, you know, there are ethical concerns about it.
But again, I think when you talk of citizen journalism, you need to be very much context specific. You can't universalize it. In some countries, citizens are—have been weaponized, or citizens have the view encouraged because this is the only way citizen journalism offers them the opportunity to say no, to say enough is enough. Citizen journalism offers an opportunity to give a voice, particularly with the advent of social media, and I think the whole world, we have seen very good examples such as the MeToo Movement, you know, these are citizens taking to social media, trying to say, well, look, enough with this.
Now, the problem is, of course, one, the ethical issues of, how do we ensure that citizen journalism can actually be trusted? Because in most cases, I mean, journalism, the idea behind journalism is, even though, of course, Rupert Murdoch has sort of changed that sort of mindset with his sort of business, business sort of approach to journalism, right, that, I think, with Rupert Murdoch or with Fox News, we see that it's more opinionated, its opinions are more powerful, right, or encouraged. But, I think, traditionally, what the idea of young journalism is to source, is to have somebody to, to provide or to get somebody who can be a source that can be verified by yourself as journalists or by other people.
Now, with citizen journalism, sometimes, you don't need that, or you don't have that, because, you know, I think we are now moving or we have moved, we've switched from sort of the, the whole idea of citizen journalists, the way that we saw them during the Iran Riots, if you think about that, or, you know, the Arab Spring to, I think, a new form of like, influencers, you know, influencers. They, they—you know, somebody who has a million people following them, then, you know, they come out and they say, "Well, this is how it should be," and they expect and, you know, those people who are following them. They think, "Oh, yeah, this guy, or this woman knows what he or she or they're doing, so we've got to follow them."
This is where the danger is, about citizen journalism as well. Because, for example, I can talk to you about someone that we interviewed, an influencer in Ethiopia, who said, "Look, I'm trying to put food on the table here. Most of the people who have interest in spreading disinformation, they pay me, they give me money, so that I could express a narrative, I can share a narrative. They know that I have a lot of people who follow me and that I'm an influencer. And because I want to also feed family and I need money, this is the way I'm being paid. So, I have to take the money, and sometimes, peddle lies or disinformation. And I know that it's not true. But, you know, it's difficult for me not to, because if I don't do that, I cannot feed my family." So it's really difficult and I think it shows—it leads us to broader issues on a global scale of inequalities as well, because this is somebody who can recognize themselves that they are an agent of disinformation, they know what they're doing is not right, but they are saying, "Well, what—which other way should I do it? Because I don't have a job. I don't have a source of income. And this is the only way for me to live." So, yeah, it has, certainly, its positive sides, but I can also see why some people—or why it's not a cup of tea for everybody. You know, some people are very critical.
Because now, I think, as I've said, I think, citizen journalism has been broadened. And there are many different forms and ways, and, I think, it is time also to even redefine what it is, you know, what citizen journalists do? Are we saying? Do we consider influencers as citizen journalists? Or do they see—do they also see themselves as citizen journalists? I mean, this particular influencer that I'm talking about, he said he sees himself as a citizen journalist. In fact, he was trained as a journalist, and he couldn't find a job as a journalist and now he is a citizen journalist who is peddling lies basically, and, and does not, and he feels bad about it, but he asks me, "So what is the alternative for me to live?" And yeah, and I can also not help him.
Am Johal 29:29
Yeah, you know, there has, of course, been this trend, and you mentioned Fox News, but there's so many examples of the conflation of journalism with commentary that has become a kind of normalized kind of way of utilizing the journalistic profession to give political messages and repetition, something that maybe fits more within the world of political communication, than journalism per se, but even when journalism is done well, we still are living in a time where the journalist who gets to frame the story, the narrative, it still sits with the journalist themselve,s oftentimes, and sure, it has to go through processes of verification and all of these things in terms of being replicable and verification of sources and those types of things. But the power to shape the narrative, even when journalism has done well, places a kind of role and a great amount of power with journalists as well. I'm wondering if you can speak to both the conflation of journalism and commentary, but also when journalism is done well, the power to shape narratives and the power that journalists have in being able to convey in the realm of mass communication that there's, there's a lot of power there as well.
Bruce Mutsvairo 30:48
Yes, it's funny that you mentioned power, and power, I think, is at the center of everything. And by coincidence, myself, Ulrike Klinger, and Daniel Kreiss, we have just done a book. And it's called Platforms, Power, and Politics. It's more of an introduction to political communication. We're trying to look at how powerful platforms are and have become or how they are shaping the political communication discourse. I think—and there is also a chapter that specifically deals with journalism.
I think what is quite interesting, regarding what you've just said, I think, at the end of the day, it is really about power. Power is everything. And, and, and I think journalists have traditionally had the power and then, I think, you could say that power has also shifted in some way, particularly if you look at also the role that citizen journalists, you know, journalists, we do—we no longer need the letter to the editor, as a way of communicating with journalists, you know, journalists are on Twitter. I mean, people can see what is happening themselves, it is more difficult to only look at journalists as being the only sort of power brokers here. I think you can also say that citizens have retained some form of power. I think the question is, what kind of power this is?
Because I think journalists have power. But I think when journalists don't get it, right, or they don't do it in the right way, it's actually the citizens with the power to actually point, point it out. It's no longer sort of hidden, you know, it's like this McLuhan, Global Village, right, where we all have a few, like, we have some access, or we know what is happening, even though I might be in the Netherlands, I know what is happening in Canada, if I read a Canadian newspaper, but do I have the power? I think, I think these are questions that, again, are very sort of context related, and I think are questions that we need to continue sort of probing because what kind of power do journalists have? How is it shifted? Who else has power?
I think the power sometimes if you think about, say, you know, people like, like, like Murdoch, is it just Fox News, that has the power, as for example, as a channel, or it is actually Murdoch and his own empire? Or the supporters behind, behind him, or people who support his sort of style of journalism, who actually have the power? Or is the power with somebody who can read and disagrees and decides to put it on Twitter or share it on Twitter to say, well, this is not right, you know, something—somebody has to change this., I guess everybody has power now. But how is this power mediated? How is this power exercised?
And ultimately, I think, even when you have power, or when you actually have power to stop or to challenge, ultimately, I think what it comes down to is whether those who you want to change their ways, actually end up changing their ways. Because, you know, you, I think we're, you know, during COVID, for example, we saw people exercising their power to demonstrate, to say, enough is enough, or to say, you know, we can't accept this, but did it really lead to any sort of meaningful change? I think that is, that is maybe what we also need to look at, because, I don't know, is power still powerful, if it is just you having the power to demonstrate, particularly when maybe whatever you're demonstrating against stays the same? Or there's no change that actually comes?
Yeah, I think these are questions and I don't know if, if I'm the expert on that. But I think what it just shows here is, yeah, we have this power dynamics, which are consistently sort of changing, I think it is very important going forward to perhaps also invest in further research that speaks to different constituencies of the world to see how power is or continues to shift, particularly in the, in the digital age.
Am Johal 35:17
Bruce, is there anything you'd, you'd like to add?
Bruce Mutsvairo 35:21
You know, I think one thing that I would like to add is, just briefly, is the power that communities have and which is, of course, why I'm, I'm coming to work with you and why we're working together actually, why I'm excited about it, is because of that, because I was—I, you know, if you look—I was talking to a journalist, local journalist in Holland, last week, and we're talking about disinformation, we're saying, “What is—where is the solution?” I think the communities is. And that is also what I said.
What we see today is, of course, that less educated or uneducated people feel completely neglected, abandoned, and they don't trust the elites, you know. They think—there are conspiracy theories about governments, about people who are educated, taking over and all these kinds of things. And I feel that one of the most powerful tools that we have is a dialogue with those people, because I don't think it really works to just say, "All these people are not educated, you know, let's just leave them. They don't know what they're talking about."
Because I think now, today, everybody, you know, everybody feels like they're an expert. You know, you can't say, you and I, because we have PhDs or, I don't know, we, we have a started or written books, we can no longer say we are the only experts. I think today, everybody's an expert, or at least they feel like that. And I always like it when you have an ordinary person on a panel. If you're having a panel of experts, then maybe get somebody who is not considered an expert, but becomes an expert because of their life experiences. And I feel this community engagement becomes really unique and very important today. If we do research that does not engage or that abandons or does not speak to the people that we write about, I think it's kind of like fighting a losing battle, because academia then becomes a bubble, you know. So, I really like this whole idea that we should try to invest in the communities that we live in and see them more, not as problems, but as solutions to, to the issues that we face as a society. That's the only thing I wanted to add.
Am Johal 37:38
Bruce, thank you so much for joining us on Below the Radar. We look forward to your visit to Vancouver. You will have already come and gone by the time this episode gets up. I look forward to collaborating with you much more as well. Thank you.
Bruce Mutsvairo 37:52
Thank you Am, and thanks for having me. It's really an honor to speak to you here and I also look forward to collaborating with you in the next few months.
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Julia Aoki 38:03
Below the Radar is a knowledge democracy podcast created by SFU’s Vancity Office of Community Engagement. Thanks for listening to our episode with Bruce Mutsvairo. Head to the show notes to learn more about the films and resources mentioned in the show. You can follow us on social media at sfu_voce to keep up to date on new podcast releases.
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