Below the Radar Transcript
Episode 18: Telling difficult stories with compassion — with Baljit Sangra
Speakers: Melissa Roach, Maria Cecilia Saba, Jamie-Leigh Gonzales, Am Johal, Baljit Sangra
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Melissa Roach 0:06
You’re listening to Below the Radar, a knowledge mobilization project recorded out of 312 Main. This podcast is produced by SFU’s Vancity Office of Community Engagement.
Maria Cecilia Saba 0:17
Below the Radar brings forward ideas to encourage meaningful exchanges across communities.
Jamie-Leigh Gonzales 0:21
Each episode we interview guests on topics ranging from environmental and social justice, arts, culture, community building, and urban issues. This podcast is recorded on the unceded territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh peoples.
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Maria Cecilia Saba 0:43
Hello, I’m Maria Cecilia Saba, and you’re listening to Below the Radar. Our guest today is Baljit Sangra, the Vancouver-based filmmaker behind the powerful documentary, “Because We Are Girls”. The film follows three Indo-Canadian sisters from Williams Lake, BC, who experienced sexual abuse by an older relative in their childhood years. Through an empathetic lens, Baljit shows the sisters’ laughs and struggles, as they seek to break the cycle of abuse and redress the wrongs within their family. In this interview, we discussed the creative process that guided Baljit’s approach to a complex story in a way that highlights her heroines’ humanity and the power of true sisterhood.
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Am Johal 1:27
Welcome to Below the Radar. My name is Am Johal and I am really delighted to be joined by Baljit Sangra and my colleague, Maria Cecilia Saba. Welcome, Baljit.
Baljit Sangra 1:39
Thank you.
Am Johal 1:40
First of all, congratulations on the incredible success thus far of “Because We Are Girls”, your new documentary. It’s certainly generated a lot of important and necessary conversations. I’m just wondering if you can begin by talking about how you got started in documentary filmmaking prior to doing “Because We Are Girls”.
Baljit Sangra 2:00
Oh okay, yeah. Well I studied film at UBC. After that, you know, you come out of film school and you think you’re gonna be a director, well it doesn’t happen. You’re a production assistant. So I kinda did a little bit of that for some years and then took a break and just worked in non-profit. Well, how I got back into it...I worked in London for a few months, and then there were a lot of really cool multicultural programming, but it wasn’t sort of branded as multicultural, it just was, because that’s what London is like. And I’m like, why don’t we have any of that in Vancouver? You know, we’re always just kinda pointing it, like “Oh look, look how multicultural it is”, and it’s not. It’s just more of a reflection of who lives there.
Baljit Sangra 2:43
So I started an arts and entertainment show in Vancouver on CityTV called Viva, so it was really modelled after what I was seeing. And we did really good, we had a broadcast licence for a couple years and then I was sending my reruns to Channel M, which is now OMNI. And then they’re like “Come over here, we’ll give you an hour show, more money, more whatever.” And we’re like, oh wow, this is really catching on, because there was sort of a vacuum missing. Anyway, from there I wasn’t really like “I’m going to be a documentary filmmaker,” but there was an issue that was happening in the news a lot about youths and involvement in gangs in the South Asian community, and I remember Kim Bolan did a whole series. And it was pretty hard hitting, like every day seeing this in the front lines, and they did...I remember seeing just all these mugshots. I’m like “What the heck is going on?” And it was really sensational, too.
Baljit Sangra 3:43
So yeah, that’s how I started documentary filmmaking. I wanted to explore this subject, got some funding. It was a co-production with National Film Board and it aired on Global and Knowledge Network, and I followed two kids in a high school in Surrey. So I got the permission from the school, it was a totally different, it’s not a sensational take on the issue at all. It has a lot of heart, ‘cause you just see what the kids are going through, you know. Sense of alienation, racism, neglect. You know, one kid was just looking for love somewhere, and he found that with the wrong people. You know, his parents were too busy. His parents had separated, his father was working night shifts and there were some problems there with the family. But, so some of those issues were highlighted by just following them and their stories, and also the level of violence. Like I would see him and then he’d have bruises, and I’m like “What happened?” And he’s like “I was walking home and I got jumped”, because of something related to something, and it’s just like oh my god. ‘Cause you have cell phones, right? You could just go “Oh I just saw so and so” and then people come. I was just like oh my god, you’re 14! So worried for him.
Baljit Sangra 4:49
Anyways, that got me into documentary filmmaking, and that film did really good. It’s called “Warrior Boyz”, and they still use it in schools, the police were using, forums and...yeah, I still get royalty from NFB from it (laughs). So it did, I think it touched a nerve because I’m from the community and I kinda shot it through that lens, like with more compassion. Because they’re just 14, 15 year olds, right? And then things just escalate so fast because of social media and you know, it could just be hanging with gangsters and they ask you to do something...it just could go so fast, and it’s also that much harder to get out of it so… and there’s a bit of a hopeful angle in that film, too, which is really good. And from there I did some more documentaries. I did one on end of life at PICS (Progressive Intercultural Community Services Society), it’s an assisted living facility in Surrey, and it caters mostly to South Asians.
Baljit Sangra 5:42
So I kinda went in there, hoping to do… my working title was “Golden Girls”, like I was hoping it would be really fun like Golden Girls. I’d find 4 cool Indian ladies who’d meet, you know, coming from all different backgrounds, like socio-economic class, maybe different parts of the Indian diaspora, but they become friends at this place and it would be fun and that’s be a really cool way to tell different histories, because they’re in one place, right? Well it didn’t really work out like that (laughs). There wasn’t a lot of action happening there, like people were pretty like...not so mobile. I did capture some of the...they celebrated all holidays and religious things and there was a real bond amongst the residents there, so I was able to capture that.
Baljit Sangra 6:28
And a resident died while I was filming...and it was just really cool to see, you know, how they address each other like brother or sister, and the women that worked there, like the residents would call them son or daughter, so that created a really cool vibe, like a family vibe, so the residents don’t feel so isolated. ‘Cause it’s really hard, it’s a bit of a taboo subject to have your seniors being put in care, right? So they create this environment, and when people come and see it, they’re like wow. There’s like a waiting list now. When it started, they couldn’t even get enough people to get it going because of the stigma.
Baljit Sangra 7:03
Anyways, long story short, when I was making this film, my own mother dies in a car accident. Yeah, she got hit by a car as she was walking the dog, and so I couldn’t finish this film because every time I looked at the footage I was just so depressed. And I’m like, I’d rather do anything on the planet than edit this movie! So somebody said, “Well why don’t you put your story in the film?” Like I’m doing this film, this happened to me, and I’m actually a thread in the film, and I was able to put my mother in the film. It’s just one thread, but that was how I was able to make the movie and I think that’s what made it more impactful.
Maria Cecilia Saba 7:42
Yeah, for sure, and I’m sure that also helped you with the process.
Baljit Sangra 7:46
Definitely. And I think, too, as a filmmaker you sometimes have to risk something. Like, you can’t be so distant. That was really hard for me, ‘cause, you know, you have that sort of distance a bit sometimes when you’re doing an observational doc, or filming something. But, sometimes when you really put so much of yourself in something, it does make a difference. Not only if it’s your own story, it can be your heart, how you see things… Then, I did another film on hockey, but that was all really happy, good, about immigrants and hockey, and I found these two kids who are really, like… have their eye on the NHL. And their really good; one was on the Giants, and then he went to another team, and now he’s in the American league. And he’s from working class background, and his parents… They’re an immigrant family, first generation. He gets invited to NHL camps, where they look for upcoming talent, so it’s pretty incredible. And then the other kid --now he’s a young man, but when I did it, he was just graduating high school--, he’s playing junior hockey in Sweden. So that’s pretty cool! Those are celebratory films and shows all the sacrifices to make it, and how your family supports you... I was just surprised at how much Indian kids are doing so well in hockey. Going to the Surrey rink it’s like 80% Indian kids. And they’re really good. So, I was not like, “Can I find two characters?”, I was like, “Oh, my god! There’s too many people, how do I pick two?” And then, we’re here, with “Because We Are Girls”.
Maria Cecilia Saba 9:25
I wanted to ask you, how did you meet the Pooni sisters?
Baljit Sangra 9:31
Well, Jeeti is a friend of mine, we go back quite a while. I met her when I had that TV show I mentioned, Viva, and she was designing clothes. She had a store in Surrey and she was actually designing, like dresses for people, whatever they wanted she’d make it. She was in Vancouver Fashion Week, and I did a story on her and we just stayed in touch. And then, I had her on the show again, she was doing something else, and she was like one of those people that you know you’re gonna stay friends with. And maybe because I was doing something a little outside of the box and so was she, so it was just a natural friendship. And then we would just get together for lunches and stay in touch, and through that connection… Oh, actually, Warrior Boyz, she came to that, and we met for lunch, and she said, “Have you ever considered doing a film about sexual abuse in the South Asian community?”, and I was, like, “What? (laughs) No, I have never considered that; how would the access be, how would I tell that story?”, and then we started having this conversation and she told me that she and her sisters were victims of sexual abuse.
Am Johal 10:41
So, I just watched the film for the first time a couple of weeks ago; it’s a really kind of jarring, emotional, beautiful film. And I think the added dimension for me, as someone who grew up in Williams Lake, in the South Asian community, and knowing the Pooni family as well. The younger brother, Jesse, he and I worked at McDonalds together and played golf together. Jeeti graduated from high school at the same time as my brother, and my cousin’s done some work as well with Jeeti… So, not knowing the background to the film… Had I not known the people the film it would have also been a kind of jarring emotional experience, but that added dimension to it… As a filmmaker, I think you have a really soft touch in aesthetically pulling these things together, and I’m wondering how you thought about how to tell the story because it is so complex and intense, and how to put it to a documentary form that speaks to the broader public.
Baljit Sangra 11:46
Because I relate so much to the sisters…. We come from the same cultural background, and we’ve been friends, so just having that trust straight up, right from the beginning, almost. And that creates a real vulnerability; they’ll disclose and share a lot, so I had a lot of access. So, it really weighed on me. I had a lot of trust and, also, the film took like three years, or more. So, I visited the family, told them what my intention was with this film: to kind of start this conversation, that this happens in so many families so we’re not singling out this family, but we also need to know the backstory and context, and how all of that is really important. And, you know, the parents were on board with that. I mean, I just feel that I put so much of myself in the film; like, if I was to do a film of my own family, or my own sisters, it would be like this film. Does that make sense? Yeah, I didn’t want to stereotype at all. I thought it needed to be slow, and it had to be hopeful, and there had to be moments where you would laugh and you could feel the connection of the family. And that sort of leads up to the climax, which is quite traumatic.
Baljit Sangra 12:54
And the court thread always added some tension along the whole film. Like, we could have done the film without the court thread, but that kind of gave it some momentum because even if the parents didn’t want to be involved, or whatever, because of the court thread, the police had to… When they started the investigation, they did speak to the parents. And the father was called as a witness, you know, as a Crown witness. So, they had no choice. And that way to be involved, is not like, “You girls are doing that thing, we have nothing to do with it”; you can’t be like that. This is a criminal case, right? You’re witnesses of the Crown. So, in a way, their family had to be involved.
Am Johal 13:35
What were some of the struggles that came up in the process of shooting the film? Because, of course, there’s like these externalities that are functioning on the telling of the story, but what are some of the challenges that you faced as a filmmaker trying to pull these threads together?
Baljit Sangra 13:51
Well, I think that when we started… NFB has their own kind of structures, a full-on NFB production. So, they do, like, an investigate-- a development shoot. And that’s when I got involved in the development part. And then, the next year… After development we shot like a little taster, I did some filming and the head office--all of them thought “ok, this is a good film, should be considered for production”, but the funding didn’t come the next year, so I kept following the story on my own. It’s like, I can’t say to my friends, “Well, there’s no money, see you when we get the money” (laughs). This life keeps moving forward, right? So, I think in the end it payed off because it gave me that access.
Baljit Sangra 14:34
So I went there myself, with them to Williams Lake, just by myself, you know? In a small plane, when they were doing their testimonies, and stayed in the same hotel with them. Having all of that, I think, really enhanced the movie later, but that was a challenge, too, you know? Because this was happening, but the funding didn’t come through that year. And, also, I captured a lot when they were ready to go to trial and there were so many delays, and adjournments. The defendant… ‘cause that’s the last thing he wanted, right? The police had done their testimonies, all the other witnesses, but the most damaging would be from the victims, right? So that’s what he didn’t want, he kept delaying that.
Baljit Sangra 15:18
So, it was like we were trying to shoot or I’m going over there to kind of film some of that, of them getting ready or how they’re feeling. And they would re-read their statements, only to be told that it’s been adjourned because he’s sick, or he’s going to the hospital, he’s fired his lawyer, he’s got a new lawyer, he can’t afford his lawyer… a whole year went by with adjournments, where they were ready to testify and it didn’t happen. So, I kind of followed some of that. I knew emotions were really running high, and being a friend and a filmmaker, I think also, just by myself, getting some of their feedback, it was almost like therapy in a way, too. I didn’t put a lot of that in the film but I think they needed an outlet; they were just feeling so frustrated. And they wanted accountability and be heard, and they were just feeling silence from the justice system. So being there just by myself, in that one year, recording, I think it was --I don’t know-- useful, in a way.
Maria Cecilia Saba 16:22
Yeah. I wanted to ask you about that as well, because the film, for me, it felt like it had a lot of moments that were both, kind of, very heartwarming and very heartbreaking at the same time. So, I wanted to ask you how did it feel for you to be witnessing those moments with them so close. There’s that climax in the end that seems like a very, very intimate family moment and we’re there with you, right? So, how did it felt, how did you make the choice to be so close, as well.
Baljit Sangra 17:01
So, yeah, there’s a scene in the film, near the end, that starts out as a family tea... And the conversation sort of starts out with one of the sisters saying that they didn’t feel supported by the parents --because they kept on going to Williams Lake back and forth--, and then it sort of escalates (the conversation). I was able to be sort of a fly on the wall in that scene. It just sort of happened, organically --it was really lucky. It’s just a cameraman --one cameraman and me. We just were rolling and we didn’t stop, and it just happened. And, I think, when it got really emotional, I was literally crying behind the camera. It was hard. Because you want almost to stop and hug them, right? But we were just… we had to keep rolling and see what happens. Because that really, really showed the impact on them, they’re able to confront their parents. Yeah, it’s a very powerful scene.
Maria Cecilia Saba 18:01
Yeah, but it’s a powerful film throughout. Like, a lot of those moments, with the three of them together, are very…
Baljit Sangra 18:06
Well, they’re very light-hearted too. Like, going through court and re-reading your statements would take them back to the childhood trauma, which was really hard. But, there were other moments I was able to be with them, where they were really fun. Like, you saw that, they’re really quick to sing and dance (laughs). I drove out once with them to Williams Lake and they sang, like, Bollywood songs the whole way there, and would be like, “No, my turn, my turn” (laughs), and I’d be like, “Could we just be quiet for a second so I can just film for a minute?” (laughs). You know, it was cute. So they have a lot of that. They would share a hotel room and just share these funny stories, or support each other, or get each other ready. Like, if it was one person’s turn, the other two would just make sure that person didn’t have to think about anything but just get to court. They’d take care of everything. So, they have this real camaraderie. So, those types of emotions I thought were really important for the film because it’s true; that’s how they… Kira says it so eloquently; some of their childhood was really traumatic, but they always had each other, and that’s what got them through. So I thought that was a really important through line to put in the film as well.
Am Johal 19:23
Yeah, and I think in some ways there’s that specificity inside of the conversations between the family, and I think they are so hard-hitting because they could be inside any family, and particularly inside an immigrant family, or Punjabi community. But there’s this sort of, of course, a through line of being inside this patriarchal culture and the challenges between second generation and others, and the way these things get transmitted and how we negotiate them now. And, I thought this was really beautifully captured in the film. And, I’m wondering how you approached that kind of complex, intimate side of things, where it’s sort of the personal, familial happening, and you’re there with the camera, and you’re at some point making editing decisions of what’s in the film and what’s not, and how you kind of approached that working with the subjects of the film.
Baljit Sangra 20:22
Well, I think the essence of filmmaking, or documentary filmmaking, is a search for truth, right? So you’re just trying to get to the real heart of the matter. So, that’s really what was any kind of motivation. We started the whole process very slow, like, just hanging with the family, a day trip… The father just sharing his whole immigrant story; coming to Canada, and how he found jobs, and some funny stories, like, there was like snow and he got this job, and he had dress shoes on, and it was freezing cold in Williams Lake, and he’s sliding and working at a gas station of something. Just those type of stories, and driving across Canada to get work… I started way back, with their own personal histories, even the mom’s whole story. I wasn’t able to incorporate all of it, but we did get some of it. And their relationship, I thought, was very important to show, you know, the mom and dad. The mom says she had a good life and they have a good relationship, you know, they love each other, so I thought that was really important. So, just having some time to build that natural relationship, like you would with any friendship… and me and Jeeti do go back and I have spent time with Kira, so I think it’s just a lot of trust that allowed for their vulnerability, that gave me the access. And it was sort of slow and simmering. Like, I think, sometimes you have films where they just have like a little short thing in them, like “ok, let’s get to the meat of it”. Like, it’s all about the trial, let’s confront the parents, or… That just wasn’t my kind of film at all. I think context was super important, for everything. Living in that small town, their schooling, childhood, Bollywood… just layers. I thought all of it was important to telling the story.
Maria Cecilia Saba 22:11
I wanted to ask you about Bollywood, as well. In the film, you intertwine a bit of scenes from Bollywood films, and I wanted to know what led you to this creative decision of showing the representation of women in the Bollywood films that the sisters would watch as kids.
Baljit Sangra 22:35
Yeah, well, when I asked them all, early on in the filming process, “What was your favourite childhood memory?”, and, you know, it was all separate, even to the parents, “What are your favourite memories at Williams Lake”... it was the cinema, for all of them, hands down. So, you know, it was sort of the only time they were able to spend as a family; the father was working really hard, he was at the mill, the mom was working in the kitchen at a hotel, you know, the girls are going through their own stuff at school… So, the family would all gather and go to the cinema on the weekend to see a Bollywood movie, which offered so much fantasy, dance, all that for the kids, and they would re-enact that at home. And the father had a real fondness for the movies, and music. He sings a little bit in the movie, but he had a record collection, so they grew up listening to the soundtracks of the movies they saw, so they knew, like, all the songs, and they would know the dialogues. So, that’s really a bit part of their childhood, so it had to be put in the movie.
Baljit Sangra 23:39
Later… So, I think depending what age they were watching the movie, they would take some of that, and later it would also inform the romantic notions. You know, when the older sister talks about when she got married at, like, 18, that her father is gonna find her a movie star, like a Bollywood film. And that didn’t work out that way. So, it kind of informed their notions of romance and also it informed the role of women. Because whenever, you know… It was really clear what a good girl was supposed to be, so pure, so dutiful, religious… so if there was any kind of a shame, or something… It often didn’t end well for the heroine, even though she would beg forgiveness, or say, “this is a misunderstanding”. And, sometimes, the heroines would kill themselves. So, I think, seeing that as young girls, that kind of helped them reinforce the need to be silent about what was going on at home. That this could be their fate, too.
Am Johal 24:44
Yeah, it’s interesting how cinema reinforces a type of culture and, at the same time, in Williams Lake, in rural British Columbia, in the seventies, this theatre at the time was... Actually, Dana Claxton, who’s an artist in town here, her stepfather used to run the theatre, so on Sundays they would play Bollywood films. I remember going there as a young kid to see an Amitabh Bachchan film, and then in the mid-eighties, when the VCR sort of came into being the circulation of video tapes to see Bollywood films, so it came inside the house. And, in a place where the preservation of culture is so complicated, in rural Canada, all these kinds of things, where there is intense racism, it had that kind of dimension too, and at the same time it reinforced these aspects. I’m wondering… the film has generated such interesting conversation, be it in Toronto, here in Vancouver --I know you’re going to be probably travelling to other places--, from your perspective, how has the reception been and what are the kind of conversations you’re hearing back, as a filmmaker. I know many filmmakers are like, “I never want to sit inside and watch my own film” (laughs)
Baljit Sangra 26:01
We --myself and the three sisters-- were at Hot Docs, that’s where it premiered, May 1st, and we sat in the audience and so, you just want to know how the audience is going to react to it. They were laughing, they were engaged, it was like… beyond my expectations, to be honest. And we came down after the screening for a Q&A, all of us, and we got a standing ovation in Toronto, the first screening. And then the second screening same thing. And then we came here for the opening night. 700 people, and then when I was seeing people passing through, I saw it was multigenerational, like grandmas with their daughters, and their daughters, and I couldn’t believe it. A lot of young boys, men… it was just so incredible. I was like, “Wow”. And the, the opening night screening… I don’t know, it just seemed that everybody got so into the movie. People really laughing, they got all the nuances, they were really reacting loud to the film. It was beyond, I couldn’t believe it. And we also had a lot of... South Asians came out, too, on opening night. They got more of the nuances; it is subtitled, but they got another layer (laughs). So that was good. It’s just been incredible.
Baljit Sangra 27:18
And then we ended up… We got two shows planned for DOXA and because of the really great response we sold out two shows, and they added two more and got sold out. At each show we got a standing ovation. I mean, a big part of it was that the sisters were there, so you could feel that the audience wanted to transmit this love, and empathy, and compassion. The whole atmosphere after the screenings was just like so much love, it was really incredible. I felt like we all got kind of lifted up. Yeah, it was good. (laughs) I don’t know what more to say! The bar is too high now! (laughs) It was beyond our expectations; the media was super supportive too. I think maybe it’s kind of cathartic too; people want to have -- audiences want to have that kind of emotional release or the shared empathy or compassion. I saw guys crying… it was pretty incredible.
Maria Cecilia Saba 28:19
I think the film speaks a lot to people from a lot of different cultures, and across genders and everything, right? I was wondering if you were planning… In the same way that your previous documentary was screened at schools, are you planning of following a similar distribution pattern?
Baljit Sangra 28:45
Yeah, the lucky thing is that the producers are the National Film Board, so they have so many departments --they have Sales, Distribution, they have the educational market--, so they have a strategy planned. They’re a big player in the educational market, and they go to those big forums where you meet programmers and they can buy a whole capsule of educational programming, like for universities and stuff like that, so I’m sure it’ll be part of that. Right now we’ve just started, so we just want to get it out. But, even after Hot Docs, I was getting emails from, “I’m a programmer from Portugal”, and I’d be like, “What?” (laughs), “I’m from this country”, and I would just send them to Marketing. They just started hearing good press, and seeing the screener, so it’s pretty exciting. Even at DOXA people came up from other ethnicities, obviously, and they just said it resonated so strongly with them, or something that they had gone through, or been hurting from generations and generations. And, a friend, a woman --I’m so proud, in awe of her--, she came out at seventy-something about being abused and went to the press, and she came to our screening and felt so proud to share her story, and supporting us. So it’s pretty special what’s happening.
Am Johal 30:16
I want to say thank you so much for joining us on Below The Radar, and thank you for the wonderful work that you do.
Baljit Sangra 30:23
Thank you.
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Maria Cecilia Saba 30:29
Thank you Baljit for joining us on the show and for creating this amazing documentary. If you haven’t seen the film yet, Reel Causes is hosting a screening of Because We Are Girls on Thursday, June 6 [2019] at SFU Woodward’s. You can find more information and tickets at sfuwoodwards.ca. Thanks to the team that produces the show, including Melissa Roach and Jamie-Leigh Gonzales. Big thanks to Davis Steel for the theme music and thanks to all the listeners.
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